I haven’t posted much but this is something I wanted to share.
It’s a talk ( really can’t call it a discussion because i’m not really going against anything) about religion, morals and the netherlands, which came from a post of a friend (which is the Shelly mentioned in the end) on facebook about the marriage equality decision.
The name of the other has been taken out.
(name deleted) The main issue, Pasc, is that “the law side of it” is being used as a bludgeon against Christians. Christian churches are being punished by the government for not hosting homosexual ceremonies on their land, Christian caterers are being punished for not catering them, Christian photographers are being punished for not photographing them, Christian bakers are being punished for not baking cakes for them–and if you think that’s not going to extend to forcing preachers to commit them, then you’re a far more optimistic person than I am. Under the law (back when the Constitution had authority, anyway), the government simply doesn’t have the right to do that. In short, don’t tell us “It’s about love” in the midst of the deathwishes and attempts to ban churches and cheers at the success of a modern-day fumi-e.
Meanwhile, your argument trying to connect the issue to interracial marriage is false for several reasons:
One reason is that real civil rights are a far cry from the homosexual “civil rights” movement. The real civil rights movement took bricks to the face to get their kids into decent schools; the homosexual movement is fighting for the right to have oiled-up men grind in front of your kids (think I’m exaggerating? Plug “pride parade” into an image search). This isn’t a civil rights movement; it’s a witch hunt.
Another reason is that there is no inherent moral quality in skin color. If I was black, or Asian, or somehow painted myself purple, it would make no difference in my moral standing. However, my actions–including and particularly who I have a relationship with or who I have sex with–are intrinsically moral or immoral acts. That’s why I’m on the internet right now instead of with a prostitute; and if I wasn’t, you would find it ridiculous to say that my decision to hire one is no more or less moral than your decision not to.
Yet another is that despite the efforts of the late and unlamented Michael Jackson, skin color is immutable. Despite the constant search for a “gay gene,” sexual behavior ~is~ changeable. Even many homosexual activists have admitted that (One famous one, Sally Kohn, intends to raise her daughter to be a lesbian), and there are organizations like PFOX where tens of thousands of ex-gays can help each other against hate and persecution—from homosexuals.
But the most important one is that it’s a blatant race-card–none of us are racist, and the days when implying we might be is enough to send us desperately backpedalling are over and done, so you might as well give up.
Like · Reply · 20 hrs
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Pascalle Van de Watering Giving people equal rights is not persecuting the ones that already have those rights. Churches can always say no to a gay wedding. But you are right, public companies are not allowed to discriminate on base of sexuality anymore.
I think an important difference, which also explains a difference in view probably is that in the netherlands a church weding is not lawfully binding. Whatever your faith is, you always need to go to a comunial hall to get legally married, the fact that you then go to a church, synagoge, temple or any other faith based building to have it done before your God(s) doesn’t have anything to do with it being legal in The Netherlands.
I think we can go on and on about the discussion if someone is born gay. My opinion is. Yes they are, yours is No they’re not. Let’s agree to dissagree here.
Like · 19 hrs
(name deleted) -Churches can always say no to a gay wedding. But you are right, public companies are not allowed to discriminate on base of sexuality anymore. –
No, and no.
A church has been punished already for refusing to host a homosexual wedding.
And amusingly enough, states where it’s permissible to discriminate on the basis of “sexuality” still allow it–this decision didn’t change that.
What it did change, however, is that businesses are forced to take part in ceremonies celebrating homosexuality–whether or not they discriminate against homosexuals. Many of the businesses in question, for example, served homosexuals before their lives were ruined, and were their business open would continue to serve homosexuals afterwards.
In other words, this isn’t about discrimination against homosexuals. This isn’t about someone saying “Gays are icky (or the same sentiment, in more colorful language) so you can’t have a cake.” It’s about people saying “You live your life how you want, but I’m not going to celebrate this act.” It’s telling that homosexual groups are willing to let the former slide, in order to punish the latter.
In Canada, this is moving on to its natural conclusion–now it’s illegal to criticize homosexuality or homosexual marriage in any way. Even preachers who read the “wrong” Bible verses during church services could find themselves hauled before a tribunal for “hate speech.” I’d love to say that would never happen in America–but it’s starting to. While Canada is the most “progressive” on the issue, the Netherlands isn’t far behind
-I think we can go on and on about the discussion if someone is born gay. My opinion is. Yes they are, yours is No they’re not.-
The tends of thousands of ex-gays might have an opinion on that too.
Like · 1 · 19 hrs
Pascalle Van de Watering Even with all of this said, i stand by my first point. It’s about equality and i think it’s a good thing that people all over the board get the same rights. Of course there will be friction at first but honestly i think this will sort itself out when time passes, because with equality issues before, it always has.
I am however happy that I live in a country where it seems that church and state are more seperate then in some other countries, so this really is less of an issue here. I can’t remember there being any major uproar in The Netherlands when marriage equality was introduced, except for a lot of people being really happy about it. as they could finally legally marry the love of their life.
Like · 18 hrs
(name deleted) -Even with all of this said, i stand by my first point. It’s about equality and i think it’s a good thing that people all over the board get the same rights.-
I don’t remember getting the right to shut down any business that doesn’t disagree with me. I could demand that right, and if I get it we’ll have equality, but I think ~nobody~ should have it.
It’s not about equality. It’s about freedom, and particularly about shutting down basic religious liberty. That’s what it was used for in the Netherlands, in Canada, in England–and it’s definitely what will be attempted here.
-Of course there will be friction at first but honestly i think this will sort itself out when time passes, because with equality issues before, it always has. –
When anyone who disagrees has finally been punished into submission.
-I can’t remember there being any major uproar in The Netherlands when marriage equality was introduced, except for a lot of people being really happy about it. as they could finally legally marry the love of their life.-
And the fact that basic free speech and religious freedom in the Netherlands is pretty much leashed–people have the freedom to say exactly what the government tells them to say.
This isn’t at all about someone being with “the love of their life.” It’s about forcing other people to endorse their lifestyle choices.
Like · 16 hrs
Pascalle Van de Watering Where do you get that religious freedom is leashed in the netherlands? Everybody is free to practice their religion, whichever religion that is. Please provide sources.
Like · 16 hrs
(name deleted) -Where do you get that religious freedom is leashed in the netherlands? Everybody is free to practice their religion, whichever religion that is.-
As long as they don’t say anything the government disapproves of.
– Please provide sources.-
Are you really going to call me a liar on this?
Might’s well start with the basics: In the Netherlands you’re not allowed to “give public expression” to any view that homosexuals may find offensive–I daresay “homosexuality is a sin” falls in that category.
“The Dutch Criminal Code § 137(c) criminalizes: … deliberately giv[ing] public expression to views insulting to a group of persons on account of their race, religion, or conviction or sexual preference.”
“Complaints against religious or political spokesmen who publicly condemn homosexuality are repeatedly filed.””
Churches in the Netherlands have adapted under the pressure by becoming atheist (that’s not a joke; 1 out of 6 Dutch “Christian” church leaders doesn’t believe in God), but it’s clear that you definitely have the right to freedom of religion in the Netherlands… as long as you believe what the government tells you.
I’d brag that in America we’re still free–but I can’t, not anymore.
Freedom of speech by country – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freedom of speech is the concept of the…
Like · 15 hrs
Pascalle Van de Watering There are indeed the anti discrimination laws which count for everybody, religious or not religious. It also protects the religious from others insulting -their- religion, including hatespeach. This also means that if i were an employer, i’m not allowed to tell you “i won’t hire you because you’re a Christian” (or muslim or jew or jehova’s witness). In the netherlands this is all the same law which covers all of those bases.
Most of the dutchies will just shrug and say “whatever” if you tell them that you think homosexuality is a sin. It’s not until you actively start to preach it and say truely insulting things about gay people that anybody will even concider taking legal action.
With each generation, less people in the netherlands are religious, which also explains why even church leaders actually care less. Here in my hometown, in the last 10 years 4 churches closed down and 1 got turned into a magnificent theatre (the outside completely preserved, including the stained glass windows). This is not due to pressure of people, it’s just because people care less about going to church and believing in a God. The ones that still do still have churches to go to as my hometown still has at least 2 catholic, 1 protestant and 1 jehova’s witness church (and 2 mosks, one turkish and one maroccan and one synagoge)
Like · 14 hrs
(name deleted) -There are indeed the anti discrimination laws which count for everybody, religious or not religious.-
I’d say it’s good that other people don’t have basic freedoms either…. But it ain’t.
And the fact remains that reading the Bible out loud is a crime in the Netherlands.
-With each generation, less people in the netherlands are religious,-
Using the government to stifle a group can do that.
Like · 5 hrs
Pascalle Van de Watering No, reading the bible out loud in the netherlands is not a crime, neither is reading the koran or torah or any hindu texts, or reading any other book out loud a crime.
Hatespeach is a crime. While you might view this as not having basic freedoms, i view this as “don’t be an ass and insult people because of their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.”
Like · 5 hrs
(name deleted) -No, reading the bible out loud in the netherlands is not a crime,-
According to the law, if it makes any “insulting statement,” it’s illegal. Certainly it extends to any sermon extolling sexual chastity–or anything else that someone can label “hate speech.”
And now that churches in the Netherlands can’t actually follow the Bible… they don’t. Do you really think that’s a coincidence? Certainly there’s some social pressure–as the Brothel of Europe, too much agitation about sexual immorality can really cut into the bottom line–but do you really think “You’re not allowed to say this,” followed by “we don’t want to say this” is just a pair of random events?
Like · 4 hrs
Pascalle Van de Watering Reading the bible is not a crime. period. Any pastor can just read any passage of the bible out loud in any church. The preaching afterwards where he or she will tell the people how they think this verse or part of the bible should be interpreted, that’s a different story. Not that they will be charged with anything, there isn’t such a thing as a church police. The only thing some dutch priests have been persecuted for was sexual child abuse.
There have been some muslim imams who have been investigated for hatespeech during their sermons but the only thing that happened really is that when one of the imams who was famous for his preaching of violence and such was not allowed into the country.
So.. in short.. christians are not persecuted in the netherlands. Churches can just follow and preach their religious books. There is no social pressure on churches, people simply do not care enough to do so.
We are of the mindset that we say “you’re religious? oh that’s fine. You’re not religious? that’s fine too.”
Like · 4 hrs
(name deleted) -Reading the bible is not a crime. period. Any pastor can just read any passage of the bible out loud in any church. –
According to the law, it is.
-The preaching afterwards where he or she will tell the people how they think this verse or part of the bible should be interpreted, that’s a different story.-
So the government controls what they preach….but this isn’t persecution?
You can’t acknowledge that the government controls what they can say, but then pretend that it’s free.
And when you tell us that they CAN follow the Bible all they want, it’s just that none of them WANT to–seriously?
Like · 3 hrs
Pascalle Van de Watering you’re nitpicking and then twisting my words. There’s no use trying to explain to you how it does work in the netherlands as you already have made up your mind about how you think it works.
Like · 3 hrs
(name deleted) -you’re nitpicking and then twisting my words.-
I’m sorry, Pasc, but those are false accusations.
The simple fact is that practicing your religion in the Netherlands is illegal if that religion includes any commentary on sexual immorality that its practitioners may find “insulting.” That’s the law. It’s not nit-picking; it’s exactly what the law says–it’s not some peripheral detail that I’m seizing on to the exclusion of the main point; it IS the main point.
And I did not twist your words in the slightest. You have stated that the government prevents them from saying certain things–and that this isn’t persecution. You have acknowledged that the government controls what they can say, and you have claimed that they are free. And you have indeed told us that they can practice their religion all they want, but that Dutch churches simply don’t want to preach or follow aspects of the Bible regarding sexual morality.
This is understandable–without “sexual tourism,” the Netherlands would be bankrupt, and preaching about sexual morality might cause more Dutch to think about whether their cash crop is a bit unethical. It’s not right, but if you’re not terribly concerned with moral issues then I suppose that isn’t an argument–however, it’s also not freedom.
Like · 3 hrs
Pascalle Van de Watering Hatespeech and discrimination against the Law. The government is not doing anything, it’s the law. We have trias politica, seperation of state (government), church and law here. You’re stating that it’s illegal in the netherlands to practice your religion, it’s not. You say it’s the government who prevents people from saying certain things, which is not true. Hatespeech and discrimination is against the Law.
Nowhere did i say that dutch chruches don’t want to preach about sexual morality, that’s what you say state. I know that a lot of them actually do and no priest or pastor has been persecuted or charged.
You just stated that my country will go bankrupt without sexual tourism and that we need preaching of sexual morality so we realise that our cash crop is a bit unethical. Do you have any idea how rediculous that sounds?
I looked it up and wordwide it seems we’re on Number 8 when it comes to sex tourism, which is completely centered around the red light district in Amsterdam. Being a prostitute in the netherlands is legal, regulated and they pay taxes. I’m quite certain that without it our country would not go bankrupt.
Than in the end you just quickly accuse me of being “not terribly concerned with moral issues”. Thank you. You don’t know me at all.
Ps. I’m sorry shelly. I was trying to explain how things in holland go and it turned into this.
Like · 32 mins